Archaeometallurgy Community

  • 1.  Hot Shortness

    Pittsburgh Chpt Admin
    Posted 12-20-2021 14:39
    Hello,

    This is just a simple question that has been on my mind for some time and this seems like the proper forum to ask.

    In steel metallurgy, when a piece of metal crumbles into pieces during the forging process, we call it a "hot short".  This is usually associated with intergranular failure at forging temperatures, commonly due to the presence of sulfur or other tramp elements.  The term may very well be used in other contexts.

    I have wondered about the root of the word "short" to describe brittleness.  The only other example that comes to mind that is similar is the use of "short" when we are discussing bread, as in short bread, which crumbles in a similar fashion.  No other examples come to mind.

    Does anyone have any more definitive information on whether my intuition here is correct?

    Thanks!
    Stephen

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    Stephen Rooney
    R&D Metallurgist
    Ellwood Materials Technologies
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Hot Shortness

    Staff Liaison
    Posted 12-21-2021 09:02
    Stephen,

    This is a very interesting question, and I look forward to seeing the responses. You may want to consider cross-posting to the ASM Online Community to get feedback from that group as well.

    Scott

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    Scott Henry
    Senior Content Engineer
    ASM International
    Materials Park OH
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  • 3.  RE: Hot Shortness

    Posted 12-21-2021 10:04
      |   view attached
    Dear Stephen, Scott,

    Quickly reaching for the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, the suggestion is there is a connection with shortness in, say, pastry making, and a possible connection with a primary meaning of short and that is short in length, perhaps in the case of pastry, a shortness of fibre. Going to its big brother, the Oxford English Dictionary Online, I have downloaded the content for cold-short, hot-shirt and the latter's predecessor, red-short, which you can find in the attached Word document. As you can see, the terms have been around for four hundred years and more . There is a lot meat in these articles and  at Historical Metallurgy Society we are devising an online glossary which will help users deal with obsolete terms. If you have access to a libra4ry with an online subscription thyere is a lot you can learn.

    All the best,
    Peter Northover

    ------------------------------
    Peter Northover
    Retired
    University of Oxford
    +44 1865 820543
    peter.northover@retired.ox.ac.uk
    ------------------------------

    Attachment(s)

    docx
    shortness.docx   31 KB 1 version


  • 4.  RE: Hot Shortness

    Posted 12-21-2021 10:13

    Following the potential connection to baking shortbread... and easy to do so this time of year!

    "In medieval times, the word 'short' applied to crisp, crumbly things."
    The History of Shortbread – A Scottish Pastry with a Rich History - ManyEats

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    Phillip Johnson
    Daikin Applied
    Staunton VA
    (540) 245-0000
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  • 5.  RE: Hot Shortness

    Posted 12-21-2021 10:49
    Edited by Patricia Silvana Carrizo 12-21-2021 10:49
    Yes Phillip!


    Here in Argentina we call butter-based dough "broken mass" and it is super easy to prepare anything, it is even the base of cakes, I like pastry too!

    ------------------------------
    [Patricia Silvana] [Carrizo]
    [Ms.]
    [Chemical Engineer]
    [Archaeometallurgy Area - UTN FRM]
    [Mendoza] [Argentina]
    [+542615577229]
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Hot Shortness

    Posted 12-21-2021 10:42
    Nice question you asked Stephen!

    I intuitively associate the term "short" with abrupt, sudden, it is like saying that it happens at once and quickly.

    Keep it going fellows!!

    ------------------------------
    [Patricia Silvana] [Carrizo]
    [Ms.]
    [Chemical Engineer]
    [Archaeometallurgy Area - UTN FRM]
    [Mendoza] [Argentina]
    [+542615577229]
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Hot Shortness

    Posted 12-21-2021 11:59
    some more,

    From my Malgorn English-Spanish Technical Dictionary, I found some useful words and translations, namely:

    short -iron: iron with acrimony, brittle when cold; cold-short brittle: brittle in cold; hot-short brittle: ashen, straw, brittle, red brittle, hot brittle; red short-iron: red brittle iron.

    Regards,

    ------------------------------
    [Patricia Silvana] [Carrizo]
    [Ms.]
    [Chemical Engineer]
    [Archaeometallurgy Area - UTN FRM]
    [Mendoza] [Argentina]
    [+542615577229]
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Hot Shortness

    Pittsburgh Chpt Admin
    Posted 12-28-2021 16:23
    Peter - Thank you for taking the time to put that document together.  Interesting to see the evolving use of the term.  This was exactly what I was looking for.  Much of this we would now term as "embrittlement", but I'm sure there are other phenomena that are entangled with the word "short".

    I would be interested in this glossary you mention.  There are many fun and interesting terms of jargon in the steel industry (I'm sure there are in others as well) that probably have interesting histories.

    Phillip - Thanks for the baking link.  Interesting to see that it places the use of the word "short" in baking at the same date as the oldest entry for cold-short in Peter's document.

    ------------------------------
    Stephen Rooney
    R&D Metallurgist
    Ellwood Materials Technologies
    ------------------------------