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Welds of all types (seam, spot, etc.) and other joining issues

  • 1.  Welds of all types (seam, spot, etc.) and other joining issues

    Posted 02-21-2020 11:09

    What are some of the best and worst welds that you have observed and in what application?
    Have you seen failures due to welds?
    Include some photos of failures and links to more information.

    I have several that fall into this category on my website at: Parnell-Eng.com - check them out.



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    T. Kim Parnell
    Principal
    Parnell Engineering & Consulting (PEC)
    Sunnyvale CA
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  • 2.  RE: Welds of all types (seam, spot, etc.) and other joining issues

    Posted 02-23-2020 23:04
    Hi, 

    Welding is a huge subject, and your question is pretty general. 

    Back in the early 80s, an old welding guy named "Butch" Sosnin spoke at one of our AWS meetings. He said "Every material/process is right for SOMETHING." The other side of that coin is that no one material/process is right for everything. 

    Welding is no different from any other human endeavor. Success depends on many factors. The expertise and diligence of designers, stress engineers, welders, welding operators, inspectors, mechanics, people who make and sell welding supplies and equipment, on and on. It also depends on honesty and integrity at all levels.

    And yet, despite man's best efforts, "stuff" occasionally happens . 

    You can find plenty of examples of welding problems on the internet and in reference books without a lot of effort. 

    Ted Reinhart

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    Ted Reinhart
    Materials & Processes Engineer
    Boeing
    Kent WA
    206-225-4170
    ------------------------------

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  • 3.  RE: Welds of all types (seam, spot, etc.) and other joining issues

    Posted 02-24-2020 10:44

    In non-critical applications, I am often surprised how "bad" a weld, or weld design, can be without leading to catastrophic failure. Welds for pressure vessels and civil applications like bridges get a lot of attention, and rightfully so. But job shops that perform welds for specialty, low-volume applications often leave many pores, cracks, and untempered martensite (in the case of steel) and the assembly still manages to hold together in service because they perform multiple welds or weld mor of the interface than would be necessary with a high quality weld. These shops don't normally have metallurgists and don't have the luxury analyse welds, destructively or non-destructively, to refine the process like you might do when designing a welded product for mass production.

    That being said, I have seen one particular case where welding the entire interface between the two work pieces was worse than if a few small welds had been performed. Once a crack forms in a continuous weld, it can propagate along the entire interface. If several small isolated welds are done, a crack in one cannot spread to the others.



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    Ken Kirby
    Snap-on, Inc.
    Kenosha WI
    (262) 748-3836
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  • 4.  RE: Welds of all types (seam, spot, etc.) and other joining issues

    Posted 02-24-2020 10:45
      |   view attached

    The common type of failure shown below and very common in ERW welds. Is it the weaker bonding? The part is heat treated and meets customer specifications. It fractured in fatigue testing. There is no proving method to prove, that it is a weaker bonding.

    The fracture initiated in ID and propagated parallel to weld seam in weaker section of bonding. It stopped propagating parallel to seam at secondary origin and continued in perpendicular direction till the complete fracture.


    Has multiple origins- 1. Initiation is in ID and the second origin is in wall thickeness


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    Sanjay Kulkarni
    Materials Engineer
    MSSC
    Livonia MI
    (734) 718-1253
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  • 5.  RE: Welds of all types (seam, spot, etc.) and other joining issues

    Posted 02-24-2020 14:11
    Dr. Parnell:

    I would like to comment on your question, which is very vague indeed.  But first let me state that I graduated with a welding engr. deg. from Ohio State and subsequently got a Ph.D. in weld metal solidification from RPI under Warren Savage.  (My 1968 Thesis is posted on LinkedIn.).  However, after re-joining USS Research, I was re-assigned to the area of continuous casting of steel.  And that is the area I have specialized in for over 50 years.  My unique welding/continuous-casting background allows me to knowledgeably comment on your question.

    Sadly, the subject of continuous casting of steel in not taught, in accurate detail, at any more than 2 or 3 universities in North America.  However, virtually all steel that has been produced in NA over the past decade has been produced using the continuous (strand) casting step.  Now, the semi-finished product from a strand caster can have numerous unique imperfections (types not experienced with ingot casting).  Many of these as-cast imperfections are eradicated by subsequent processing to commercial product.  Unfortunately, some of these imperfections are NOT eradicated and remain as subtle weaknesses in the final product. But if you don't know what you are looking for, you will not find them, despite your extensive mechanical or materials engineering talent.  Consequently, you may be trying to find fault with an ERW weld, but it may be that the welding process is not to blame, failure may be due to a unique weakness in the base metal.

    I could elaborate further, but not in this format.

    Edward S. Szekeres
    CASTING CONSULTANTS INC
    Em: casting@omeansea.net

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    Edward Szekeres
    Principal Consultant
    Casting Consultants Inc.
    Rochester NY
    (585) 766-3536
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  • 6.  RE: Welds of all types (seam, spot, etc.) and other joining issues

    Posted 02-25-2020 09:16
    GO BUCKS!!

    Ted Reinhart
    B.S., Metallurgical Engineering
    THE Ohio State University
    Class of '77

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    Ted Reinhart
    Materials & Processes Engineer
    Boeing
    Kent WA
    206-225-4170
    ------------------------------

    Original Message
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  • 7.  RE: Welds of all types (seam, spot, etc.) and other joining issues

    Posted 02-25-2020 09:38
    I very much agree that defects in continuous casting are poorly documented. I have worked at a mini-mill with a three-strand caster and we had a poorly photocopied article that showed several major types of continuous casting defects to help us diagnose problems. I have looked for better resources, but have yet to find anything that is really helpful. I now work in manufacturing, primarily using hot rolled or cold finished steel that typically comes from continuous casting, but it is often difficult to prove to myself, let alone a supplier, when I believe I am seeing a defect that originated from casting.

    Are you aware of any documents that detail typical types of continuous casting defects with information on how they might affect finished product if they persist through hot rolling?

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    Ken Kirby
    Snap-on, Inc.
    Kenosha WI
    (262) 748-3836
    ------------------------------

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  • 8.  RE: Welds of all types (seam, spot, etc.) and other joining issues

    Posted 02-26-2020 10:23
    Thanks Ken,
    I am also having the same issue with our OEM's. It may be some one in ASM network can help us with this issue'
    Regards,

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    Sanjay Kulkarni
    Materials Engineer
    MSSC
    Troy, MI
    248-840-1056
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  • 9.  RE: Welds of all types (seam, spot, etc.) and other joining issues

    Posted 02-26-2020 10:14
    Hello Doc,
    I agree with you. I know as a supplier approval that, all tube makers get steel from one source and that is made from Continuous Casting process.

    Given the field I am in,  it is always looking for data. How can I have data or testing that proves it is not the weld issue, but casting issue . Our customers/OEM Metallurgist always want data, most people are in the same job for 15 plus years and claim they are the experts.
    Regards,
    Sanjay Kulkarni

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    Sanjay Kulkarni
    Materials Engineer
    MSSC
    Livonia MI
    (734) 718-1253
    ------------------------------

    Original Message
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  • 10.  RE: Welds of all types (seam, spot, etc.) and other joining issues

    Posted 02-26-2020 11:58
    Manufacturers using strand cast steel often find it extremely useful to send 1 or 2 employees to the week-long Brimacombe Continuous Casting Course held annually in Vancouver, Canada.  The next Course will be held this coming April.  For details go to www.brimacombecourse.org.  Although you may not be directly involved in steelmaking, you will be blown away by the amount of useful information (mostly unpublished) that you will gain!  There still may be time to register for the 2020 presentation.  Check it out.

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    Edward Szekeres
    Principal Consultant
    Casting Consultants Inc.
    Rochester NY
    (585) 766-3536
    ------------------------------

    Original Message
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