FAS Membership Community

 View Only
  • 1.  Failure Analysis Capability

    Posted 10-01-2021 08:39
    Dear all (FAS),

    I am keen to start a line of conversation concerning capability in failure analysis, a topic I have great interest in.  This is partly for selfish reasons in that I'm keen on understanding whether our group is "up with the times" in terms of kit, research, staff development and so on - and so, what improvements do we need to make?

    I'm considering what kind of tools and techniques do we use, and what research we are involved in?  With all the rapidly advancing techniques in Materials Science – what do we use in-house, what are useful in day-to-day FA, where do we go to find tools externally and why/when would we use them?  Also, it is about staff training and development - what courses and help is out there to assist us in that - this is all part of the game.

    I'd be happy to share some detail in subsequent posts.  Would you be interested in such a discussion?

    It would be really interesting to put together a workshop at some point in the near future to air and discuss this topic more at length.  If anyone is of the opinion that that would be a good idea, or even if you may be interested in contributing to such a workshop, then please let me know.

    Eddy Saunders - FI Specialist, Rolls-Royce plc (UK)

    Edward Saunders
    Specialist Scientist - Failure Investigation
    Rolls Royce plc

  • 2.  RE: Failure Analysis Capability

    Posted 10-02-2021 13:52
    I think it is a good idea.

    Donato FIRRAO FASM
    Politecnico di Torino

  • 3.  RE: Failure Analysis Capability

    FAS Board Vice President
    Posted 10-03-2021 13:00
    Hello Ed,

    I am the current President of FAS.   I m interested in your thoughts.   FAS is trying to foster more international participation, so you caught my attention. For example, our sister society, IMS just had a  joint session with the DGM conference in Germany last week.   Now, as someone who does failure analysis, I will start by asking you a few questions. :-)

    1) How well do you know the FAS society.?  Its current committees and what they do?   Our symposium that has been happening yearly for 25+ years?  Some of them cover the subjects you to which you refer.  There is not good or bad answer, it provides me a sense of how to approach your idea.

    2) Can you provide a structure to your idea.   Are you thinking of a Virtual meeting?    A one day meeting, 4 hour meeting, etc.  Connect with a certain group, company or society?

    3) Topic -  "Is our group is "up with the times" in terms of kit, research, staff development and so on - and so, what improvements do we need to make?"  This conversation comes up at our 4 day symposium each year.  Our multiple sessions cover various specific areas in FA.   However, it is very subject area specific.    For example, you are with a jet engine fabricator.  Your world is unique to RR, PW, GE, etc.   Different from 99% of the rest of the world of  of FA.  Is this what you want?

    4) Can we count on your support and effort to help us make this happen?

    I look forward to you thoughts.  I wish to bring this idea to the FAS International Relations Committee

    Daniel Dennies
    Principal and CEO
    DMS, Inc.
    Foothill Ranch CA
    949 554 9545

  • 4.  RE: Failure Analysis Capability

    Posted 10-04-2021 04:57
    Hello Daniel,

    Thank you very much for your very interested reply, which is really encouraging.  In terms of answering your questions:

    On (1), Daniel I'm afraid I don't know it very well as I have only joined the society (and ASM) this year - so in terms of how it is run, the symposiums etc.. it is relatively new to me, so that if there is already a platform to base this potential discussion on then I would be very happy to do it that way.  My apologies accordingly that I have missed years of discussion on this topic before, and there is an aspect of myself 'catching up'
    In terms of where this idea came from, I am a fellow with the IoM3 in the UK, and being part of their MFIG (Materials Failure Investigation Group) I have raised the same idea with them - and we are soon to hold a FA capability workshop accordingly.   I wished therefore to run a similar workshop on the other side of the Atlantic, and with this in mind I sought to join ASM and the FAS, as guided by my good colleague Matt Johnson in the Indianapolis team (R-R).  I confess that my aim has some sense of selfishness in that I wish the FA (FI) teams in my company to be "up with the times" in terms of our capability, but I am also aware that we all have a measure of moral obligation to share what we know that could affect product safety (or, in the aerospace world, flight safety) and so I am seeking a platform to be able to do that.

    On (2), my dream was to have/ run a workshop on the topic that would last a few hours (yes, about 4) in which a few different organisations would present on their own capability over the first half, and the second half would be a discussion forum to look to formulating best practice together.  In terms of the presentations, these would be relatively high level (so wouldn't have to tell the world exactly how they carry out failure analysis) and would avoid advertisement of their organisation (that is, to have no ulterior motive), but rather have a common ground of wishing to share together how best to perform the task with an underlying aim of that moral obligation I mention above.  I would be happy to present in terms of our own organisation of course, but does not necessarily have to be that way.  In the ideal world, it would have been great to run it face-to-face (I am old fashioned that way), but with the current situation, travel restrictions, and for the sake of cost it would have to be virtual.
    I did raise this idea a few months ago with some of the FAS committee, but have decided that to start a discussion thread would be useful.  I have a short presentation that covers the thoughts - that I could send you personally if you wish

    On (3) this is really interesting, and would like to contemplate the symposium you mention further (would be interested in more details on that).  It's certainly true that in the World of aerospace and the jet engine there are many aspects of FA that we do differently, and I am obviously very interested in what we can learn from that specific world.  However, I feel that it is time we learnt from the much wider community and give something of what we know back, so yes - it is with the wider FA community that I would be looking. 
    In terms of specific subjects, I am keen going forward to look into other topics - for example, evidence preservation, striation counting (of which I ran a workshop a few years ago in Europe, and have wondered about doing the same in the US)

    On (4) yes

    Please note that I have received replies from other parties showing interest to date, who may wish to take the opportunity to present.

    Thank you again,  regards - Eddy

    Edward Saunders
    Specialist Scientist - Failure Investigation
    Rolls Royce plc

  • 5.  RE: Failure Analysis Capability

    Indianapolis Chptr Adm
    Posted 10-04-2021 17:11
    Hi Dan,
    In addition to Eddy's response to your message, I'd like to say that I am more familiar with ASM and FAS as I am based in US. I have been an ASM and FAS member for years and am a leader in the local Indianapolis ASM chapter. I have been to MS&T in the past, and the structure of those meetings (in my opinion) is less conducive to type of knowledge sharing that Eddy is looking for. Instead of a 20 min "case study" type presentation, giving the opportunity for participants to talk about what they consider "normal" investigation tools and practices (photography, magnified inspection, SEM, metallography, hardness, etc - as possible examples) versus "extraordinary" or "state of the art" tools and practices (whatever that means to them); and how, when, where the participant would use that capability. In the second half (or, more likely, a follow on) meeting, discussing best practices within the scope of each organization's relative capability including more broadly applicable topics such as chain of custody, customer communication, etc.

    I would also say that our world as a gas turbine engine OEM is less unique than you might expect. Portions of Rolls-Royce work on piston engines and nuclear reactors, and the types of investigations and the lessons learned arising from them are very relevant to the world of Aero. Especially with the increased focus on electrical power generation, we are seeing electrical device failures, etc that could be home in a number of applications that aren't "hot and fast," so to speak.

    Thank you,

    Matthew Johnson
    Rolls-Royce Corporation
    Indianapolis IN

  • 6.  RE: Failure Analysis Capability

    Posted 10-05-2021 04:53
    Thank you indeed Matt (it was yourself of course who showed me the way regarding joining FAS).  
    Just to re-iterate the comments on "extraordinary" or "state of the art" tools and practices - specifically with regard to the activity of forensic-type failure analysis in a practical sense:  We are increasingly wishing to employ these in our company - for example focussed ion beam, EBSD and lattice mis-orientation mapping and many others, and investing in research regarding the application of these tools.  Not that I am critical of all our classical techniques, such as fractography and metallography (which I still continue to love and work with of course), it is just that there are occasions when these do not quite give us the complete answer we need, and that employment of these 'developing' techniques can improve the accuracy of our findings.  As you say, Matt, these may become increasingly applicable to failures in the world of the electrical machine, and materials that are not metallic in nature too :-)

    I wish to share - at a high level may be - some of these activities, and seeking to understand whether we are following the right paths, and to lend an informative hand perhaps to other companies who are seeking the same.  We also don't want to 're-invent' the wheel if certain research activities are already out there. 
    Some of the decisions involve the choice of whether to bring particular tooling in-house or rely on 3rd party experts.  Such choices are often governed by cost, but that needs to be weighed against the opportunity to have speed and easy access to immediate diversity and skill in the time of crisis.

    Dear all - please let us know if you would be interested in participating in such a work-shop
    Regards, Eddy

    Edward Saunders
    Specialist Scientist - Failure Investigation
    Rolls Royce plc